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 Jimmy Gillman

Published - Friday, January 11, 2008

POST COMMENT | READ COMMENTS (38 comment(s))

Sexism and Hillary, racism and Obama

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It’s easy to conclude, as have some have, that opposition to Hillary Clinton’s drive for the Democratic nomination is the result of lingering or overt sexist sentiment. It’s just as easy, perhaps even easier, to assert that opposition to Barack Obama is the result of racism, or that opposition to Huckabee is caused by anti-Christian attitudes. And, unfortunately, even in 2008 America, all three of these contentions are supportable in some quarters and with certain voters.

However, I think we oversimplify if we reach a point where the foregoing conclusions become the immediate response to opposition to these and other candidates. Is opposition to Mitt Romney automatically a sign of being anti-Mormon?

In Clinton’s case, there are certainly legitimate policy and personal reasons to oppose her candidacy, especially if one examines the “35 year” record she herself constantly invokes. Besides, there are many women voters who support candidates other than Clinton. Can they be labeled sexist?

There are also sufficient reasons to doubt Obama’s readiness to assume the presidency, or to be concerned about some of Huckabee’s extreme social positions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean those who express these views are racist or anti-Christian (even Clinton and her supporters continually bring up the issue of Obama’s lack of readiness).

Also in Clinton’s case, there are many politicos who feel, if anything, that the press has been too easy on her, too deferential. And a sufficient number of these pundits and writers are women whose motives cannot be attributed to sexism (see the link below).

I think we lower the political discourse and give too little credit to many voters when we are quick to label. It’s an understandable reaction when passions run high. As a Jew, I will admit that I might sometimes too quickly characterize someone’s motives as anti-Semitic. I don’t think I’ve done it often, or in recent memory applied it inappropriately. But I cannot claim to be anywhere close to perfect, so I must accept the fact that at somewhere along the line I probably applied the label too quickly.

While there is no question that portions of this election will, in fact, turn on gender, race and religious affiliation, women supporters of Clinton and African-American supporters of Obama need to accept the fact that opposition to their candidacies come from people of all backgrounds, as does opposition to the other candidates, and in their cases are not inherently or by default the result of being sexist or racist.

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 Comments »

on Welchy, from harsch wrote on Jan 18, 2008 8:04 AM:

" I have never seen any evidence of hate in any of Welch's posts. The language employed against him in the last post speaks volumes. People 'question' him; he 'attacks'. As far as I see, for the most part it is Welch arguing and some arguing back, most simply expressing disagreement in a variety of tones. "

To RH wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:45 AM:

" Actually, I think Mikey is the "hater". Anytime you post a comment questioning his reasoning or his "evidence", he attacks your post (& the poster). But I really don't care because it is clear to me he is "full of himself". I still think his consecutive posts are his way of circumventing the rules. But it is Jimmy's Blog and he can do what he wants. It was just a suggestion. "

rick harsch to fair enough wrote on Jan 16, 2008 11:54 AM:

" This obsession with 'Mikey' 'Welchy' is evidence of some kind of disturbance that I wish I could consult Dr. Freud about. The word limit is a good idea, but so is the use of consecutive posts to make an argument. Is it really difficult to skip three posts, or even fifteen? And this unseemly roundabout semi-consorship urge is self-defeating anyway: if you lose Welchy, you lose your outlet for something that appears to resemble hate. "

Fair Enough wrote on Jan 16, 2008 5:15 AM:

" However, I do think there is a rule that you (& the Trib Site) are not enforcing, namely the 150 Word Limit. Mikey's use of consecutive posts on this blog as well as his postings on the Trib Site are just a way for him to circumvent such rules. My suggestion is that some method be incorporated that does not allow a 2nd posting until another party's comments have been submitted and posted. Either that or get rid of the word limit. "

To "To Jimmy 5:00 A.M." from Jimmy wrote on Jan 15, 2008 12:14 PM:

" I'm sorry that you feel my response suggests that you called anyone a "name," but a re-reading of it by me does not reach such a conclusion. I didn't accuse you of calling anyone a name, nor did I impugn your intelligence, which I'm sure is considerable. My intent was only to explain why I can't create a list of offensive words and do not favor an anything goes policy. My apology if you were offended, and I hope you'll continue to read my blog and contribute. "

To Jimmy wrote on Jan 15, 2008 5:00 AM:

" Settle down Jimmy! I said it was your blog and that I absolutely agree with your right to do anything and make any rule you want. But for the record, I made an observation (like Mikey W.) and posted such (but without the number of words he uses). I did NOT call anybody a name as you have suggested. And I do not know you well enough to let any comment you make about my intelligence to bother me. If I knew you and respected you, it would probably bother me. "

To:Michael wrote on Jan 14, 2008 11:57 AM:

" of course you don't respect them. You have no respect for anyone who disagrees with you. Could you give some specific examples of people blaming you for their shortcomings? "

Michael Welch: Thanks Jim!... wrote on Jan 14, 2008 10:47 AM:

" Jimmy I know this 'barrage' will never end as long as I comment. I accept it; it's all part of the game now. Frankly I don't respect these relatively few people; they've lost that but then they obviously feel the same about me but so what? I've become for SOME the 'main topic' and I have yet to see an argument from those FEW that doesn't involve blaming me for their shortcomings. I no longer expect cogent 'debates' from them but I'll still say what I believe. Anyway that's the blogosphere -- and whoever said life is 'fair' hmm?... "

To "To Jimmy 6:43" from Jimmy wrote on Jan 14, 2008 9:51 AM:

" Considering the handful of times I've deleted an offenseive word (it's about usage, not the word itself), and considering it's almost always from the same few individuals, I'd hardly call that over doing it. I'm not in favor of an "anything goes" policy. " Or would you have preferred that I responded by saying "what a stupid comment yours is, you dumb, idiotic moron." Would that have been better? I don't think so. "

Joan wrote on Jan 14, 2008 9:30 AM:

" Wow, Michael. I didn't even look at this board until today, and I see you are talking about me over here also. For the record, you never referred to me as childish or petulant. Apparently, those were names reserved for someone else who had the temerity to disagree with you. Nope, I just warranted the label of stalker for responding(I guess) to more than one of your posts. It was brought up on the other board because you wondered why more women don't post. I answered for myself and you are dragging it on and on and on and on. EVEN, I see, on other blogs also. Sad,Michael,sad. "

To Michael Welch 1/12 10:31am wrote on Jan 14, 2008 8:17 AM:

" Actually, I have seen no posts on this blog from the poster you are referring to. So, who is obsessed now? "

To:1/11 4:38pm wrote on Jan 14, 2008 8:15 AM:

" Exactly. Which is why I feel the "full range of opinion" as the sole criteria for determining whether a social position is extreme is not valid. "

To Jimmy wrote on Jan 14, 2008 6:43 AM:

" I think you are over doing it with the (word deletd) stuff, but it is your Blog. You might want to list the "offensive words" that you will modify as it appears to be more inclusive than just about everybody else. "

Richard Cranium wrote on Jan 12, 2008 7:50 PM:

" To Willie: Kindasleazy Rice has never had an elected position in her entire career. She has stated numerous times that she doesn't want to run for President and I'm extremely happy about that. She's a Bush lackey and we don't need anymore of those... for a long time... Besides, she even has an oil tanker named after her. What does that tell you? "

Jimmy to Michael wrote on Jan 12, 2008 1:23 PM:

" If I had to do it over again, I would have just deleted the word and not your entire comment way back when; to that extent, I've sort of changed the rules since then to provide a bit more latitude -- making these kind of judgment calls is an inexact science, to say the least, but I hope you don't feel you've been treated unfairly by me. Your comments, of course, are always appreciated. "

Michael Welch: Food Fight At Jimmy's! Take That! And That!... wrote on Jan 12, 2008 10:42 AM:

" As far as voting I mean they won't let 'Krusty' cut his own meat but as H. L. Mencken once wrote 'Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people' or 'voter' for that matter. Country's going into a full-blown recession in the next few months, unemployment will rise and Wall Street firms will lose precious bodily fluids (Boo hoo hoo! Execs who won't be able to buy that sixth 'home' in the Caymens!) so a nervous publico will vote for Hillary or Whomever. Hillary exudes both confidence and competence (she's not as canny as Bill but maybe smarter) so she'd be more comforting -- Mom's in charge kiddies! Barack is like having your older brother babysitting -- perhaps not the best idea. But they let 'Krusty' vote in Wisconsin Rick! I mean -- it's nice they are so uh 'liberal' with the chronically ill ain't it?... "

Michael Welch: Dreckish Indeed! (Goy Joy!?)... wrote on Jan 12, 2008 10:31 AM:

" Well here we are at 'Jimmy's Blog' Rick, and 'Krusty' is calling me 'dreck' with the Nixonian euphemism (i. e. [expletive deleted]) which suits him to the T(ee-ed off!). (And I got deleted for calling an actual 'idiot' an 'idiot' -- so go figure.) And then I have my own self-designated 'stalker' crying perpetually over a relatively mild characterization that her views seemed 'childish' and her attitude 'petulant.' Welchy can take it though because it just underscores the obvious -- 'Krusty' has ALWAYS NOTHING TO SAY but dreck and 'Joan' has NOTHING to say but 'poor poor pitiful' her, ever abused, never amused. Rick it's a virtual riot here at 'Jimmy's Blog' (Jim the bartender?) -- so have a beer and jump right in!... "

Willie wrote on Jan 12, 2008 9:51 AM:

" Condaleeza Rice should run for president because she embodies all three. That would be your true measuring stick of opposition. "

To Mikey wrote on Jan 12, 2008 8:40 AM:

" "Mikey" is just 5 letters off from [word deleted]. "

Big Spender wrote on Jan 12, 2008 6:52 AM:

" Whatever the next president's race or gender, we need someone who knows what they are doing--America can't afford more incompetent leadership; folksiness and celebrity charm are no substitute for sound management skills. It's gonna be a bumpy ride...make sure you've got some gold coins and plenty of canned goods on the shelves--economic depression is coming to America soon. Ah well, it's time for Big Spender to move on--in a few months, I'm splitting for the coast, more money, no snow, and there's the ocean!...it's been great blogging with all of you! Keep on keepin' on! "

just aguess wrote on Jan 12, 2008 6:44 AM:

" To be clear, it's not Clinton's fault that she hasn't authored any significant legislation -- it wasn't in the cards given the larger political situation. But that's what makes it strange for her to specifically ask us to compare her "record" with Obama's; what are we supposed to find when we look? I can't shake the sense that Clinton's years of first ladying amount to some kind of substantial experience, but they don't really amount to a record. "

Slider wrote on Jan 12, 2008 12:48 AM:

" It is time for Jesse Ventura to become president, he will tell and do it like it is, no questions or indecisions. He will do right for the United States. "

rick harsch wrote on Jan 11, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Welchy, I'm back. I couldn't get the trib page up for weeks and could only imagine you getting trounced in arguments by Krusty and his ilks club. Somehow I can tune in tonight and, yes, right there in front of me on the first Gillman he's making an utter fool out of you. Well, Welchy, I'm back and you no longer have to go it alone. Unless the blackout resumes... "

To: 3:04 wrote on Jan 11, 2008 4:38 PM:

" And some people believe that it's okay to enslave women as sexual slaves/sweatshop workers and then force them to have abortions. Such, in fact, was the case for the garment manufacturers in the Marianas Islands for whom former House Majority Leader and staunch "pro-life" advocate Tom Delay advocated. And he, unlike the fictious pathological rapist you describe, was a mainstream ally of the sitting president. Granted, there seem to be a few rapists in congress but no one that I know condones their behavior. I'd call extreme the old boys that say, "She was asking for it" but even they would agree that rape was wrong. In my half-century, I have never once met a rape advocate. I must admit, though, that I have never met an abortion advocate, either--CHOICE advocates, yes, but not abortion advocates. "

rick harsch wrote on Jan 11, 2008 4:25 PM:

" Nice to see Krusty throw in an opinion that challenges Mr. Gillman's assertion of voter intelligence. "

Mike Sanders wrote on Jan 11, 2008 3:09 PM:

" re 1:52pm post. I am confused what you believe. If the average, nonchalant person did believe that the unborn should be afforded the basic human right to not be arbitrarily killed, and that abortion violated the human rights of the unborn, would criminalizing abortion be an extreme position or not? You seem to be employing a double standard from one post to the next. "

To:1:52pm wrote on Jan 11, 2008 3:04 PM:

" Not according to my example. Some people DO contest that rape victims should be afforded any rights at all. Very rare, but these people are out there. In addition, some kooks actually would support paying people to rape. So, using your "whole range of opinion" theory, the first group of people are actually more moderate than the 2nd(extreme) group. The other extreme would be the normal people who think rape is a crime that should be punished. That is why I disagree with your premise that volume of people believing something has no bearing on whether a position is extreme. Clearly it does. "

Krusty wrote on Jan 11, 2008 1:55 PM:

" "I think "michael welch" made a typo when he said "Arizona now which has the second-highest population of Mormons" it should read "has the highest population of [word deleted] since he moved there. Good thing I'm here to correct your typing "michael". " "

To: 12:30 wrote on Jan 11, 2008 1:52 PM:

" Presumably, you mean that the human rights of the unborn are being violated. If, however, the average, nonchalant citizen doesn't believe that a fetus is a full-blown human life to be accorded the full protections of a citizen, then awarding it those protections to the detriment of the host woman is extreme. The rape analogy, on the other hand, has a clear victim that no one contests is accorded all the above-mentioned rights. "

Michael Welch: Extremism In The Defense Of Relativity Is --?... wrote on Jan 11, 2008 12:39 PM:

" I remember hearing Barry Goldwater on tv in 1964 stentorially proclaiming 'Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue' and during the rest of th '60s a lot of protesters took BG's advice (penned by later 'hippie'-libertarian Karl Hess) rather literally. One's judgment re: viewpoints becomes inevitable but as a self-proclaimed 'socialist' I recognize that what appears an 'extreme' view at a certain time wasn't so say a hundred years ago. There was actually a socialist mayor of Milwaukee -- as well as a socialist member of congress from Wisconsin -- then. The US is I believe more 'conservative' now than in 1960 or '64 especially. Both Hillary and Obama will be called 'liberal' but they're unlikely to be even as liberal as were for example Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson. 'Extreme' becomes relative to, like everything else... "

To:11:49am wrote on Jan 11, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Interesting comment but not entirely accurate. Most people who oppose abortion being legal do so because they see abortion as a human rights violation. So, if your criteria is the middle ground on the full range of opinion, you run into this issue concerning rape: Those who believe rapists should continue to be criminalized is one extreme. Rewarding rapists would be the other extreme. The middle ground would be something to the effect of "make it legal, but educate people regarding the harmful effects". So, everyone who thinks rape should remain illegal would be considered extreme, according to your criteria. "

To: To Question for Jimmy from Jimmy wrote on Jan 11, 2008 11:49 AM:

" No, I think extreme is a fair assessment. "Extreme" only refers to the distance from the "middle position" and even if that end of the distribution is heavily weighted with warm bodies, the social positions are still extreme with respect to the range of opinion. Criminalizing abortion doctors would be one extreme; rewarding women to have abortions would be another. "

Michael Welch: And Mormons!... wrote on Jan 11, 2008 11:42 AM:

" I live in Arizona now which has the second-highest population of Mormons (Utah just to the north is first of course) in the country so Mormons as state politicos are common. What irritates some is how conservative they usually are -- though there are notable exceptions: the Udall family of Tucson had Stewart, the very fine sec'y of the interior for both Kennedy and Johnson and Morris 'Mo' who was a long-time LIBERAL Democratic US House member from southern AZ. 'Mo' ran for prez in '76 and I voted for him in the Wis primary as the most 'liberal' of the Demos. He had a sharp wit too and even wrote a book titled dryly 'Too Funny To Be President'... "

To Question for Jimmy from Jimmy wrote on Jan 11, 2008 11:06 AM:

" Perhaps, but I don't think so. Extreme positions are not always negative by nature. On the other hand, maybe I should have said "strong social positions." Thanks for your comment. "

Michael Welch: Just Think! (Could You Have Ever Imagined --?)... wrote on Jan 11, 2008 10:32 AM:

" Re: Obama here's a guy who's born in Hawaii, whose antecedents come from Kenya (grandma still lives there), whose middle name is 'Hussein' and last name is one letter from 'Osama.' NOW that's fascinating in and of itself but he does appear more a 'Cosbyan' black (he could be 'Cliff Huxtable's son nes pas?) than LCoolJ et. al., but the idea that a guy like him could be a major party nominee even in folks' minds in the much-vaunted 'radical' 1960s would have been mind-blowing! (Martin Luther King Jr after all was thinking seriously of running but as a THIRD PARTY candidate in '68.) That we have as the two most likely to be the next president (either/or) a woman and a black is encouraging even if neither is a REAL 'anti-establishment' politico... "

Michael Welch: "(Too) Tough Broad"?... wrote on Jan 11, 2008 10:20 AM:

" Actually I'd prefer Barbra Streisand for president rather than Hillary -- oy let's have a prez who can 'belt' it out face-to-face! I heard however an interesting commentary on public radio by a New Hampshireite analyst, a woman who noted that few 'ordinary' womenfolk listen to NPR (ahem!) but many hear right-wing talk radio and that the Limbaughians just savaged HRC for the misty mountain dare-I-say Tammy Wynette-ish catch-in-the-throat and that upset a number enough to say The h--- with 'em; I'm a-votin' Hills! Nobody knows really -- yet -- why the polls were so off but I wondered if she was correct. Hillary didn't do a 'Muskie' in '72 now but oddly enough she's perceived as so 'tough' that a little emotion makes her seem almost like John Wayne talking about the Alamo... "

Contrarian wrote on Jan 11, 2008 10:17 AM:

" There are a number of legitimate reasons to oppose Clinton's candidacy that are independent of her sex. I am a woman and a feminist and would not vote for her if she ran unopposed. I would love to see a woman president -- just not this woman. We should not vote for someone because of their sex or race any more than we would vote against them for those reasons. Integrity, honesty, intelligence, and humility are far more important. Let's try for once to choose the best PERSON for president. "

Question for Jimmy wrote on Jan 11, 2008 9:59 AM:

" Could you have inadvertently expressed an anti-Christian attitude by characterizing Huckabees views as "extreme social positions"? Extreme has a negative comnnotation. It also has a connotation that suggests his views are shared by very few people. I don't either of these things is necessarily the case. Yet you state it like it is a foregone conclusion. "


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