River Valley Blogs

To : Michael wrote on Mar 5, 2008 1:42 PM:

" Enjoy your belief also. Thanks for the discussion.
"

Michael Welch: And Okey Dokey Again!... wrote on Mar 5, 2008 12:44 PM:

" And I responded by saying Okay 'believers believe' -- as I've pointed out. So I don't see that there's anything else between us to say on this topic. Enjoy your belief!... "

To:Michael Welch wrote on Mar 5, 2008 11:54 AM:

" I responded to you on the other board that you are confusing fact and opinion. The idea of yours that the life, death, and bodily Resurrection of Jesus is not a historical fact is merely your opinion. It is not, as you say, "clearly not true". I believe it is true, so your statement is not clear to me or many others. My belief does not imply an intolerance of other religions. I believe other religions are not factually correct. But I tolerate them just fine. "

Michael Welch: Parsing "True" Belief: What "Is" Is... wrote on Mar 5, 2008 11:15 AM:

" As I've said in another comment today if you say you believe in the sacred scripture of a religion as 'historical fact' in every aspect and word, that is clearly not true. I think that belief usually implies an intolerance of other religions; I was told (by whom? -- how can I know WHO anyone 'is' since one can take on numerous 'disguises' on this blog) that Jesus himself expresses 'intolerance' of other beliefs and I suppose that a literalist believer goes along with that. Of course one can be 'intolerant' or 'racist' or 'anti-semitic' and NEVER really ACT upon it... "

harsch on tolerating fact wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:44 PM:

" What could be more obvious than that people tend to be intolerant of facts. Often they do this by claiming they are not facts. Often (see the justification for pre-emptive attack on Iraq) they do this by simply lying about facts. "

harsch wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:42 PM:

" I suggest that poster identify themselves as tolerant of intolerant. Clearly more than one, unless a split personality is at work, anonymous space skipper is at work. "

harsch to mar 3 responder wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:40 PM:

" As I don't know who you are, I can know absolutely that you ever even posted before. But if your signature colon without space is indeed your signature, then you are lying. "

harsch to toHarsch wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:38 PM:

" No, you are wrong--the poster absolutely does not prove him or her self to be intolerant. "

To:Michael 11:25am wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:29 PM:

" If you go back and read yesterdays 3:21pm post, the poster acknowledges he would be wrong, using that example. His point is that "wrong" has a different meaning than "intolerant". I believe you are wrong regarding there being many roads to heaven. But, I am not intolerant of your view. I tolerate it just fine. "

To:Michael wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:04 PM:

" You completely misunderstand. I am saying tolerance or intolerance can't be applied to questions of fact. I purposely used your example to illustrate this point. I thought it was pretty clear. Sorry if it wasn't. "

For the sake of argument.... wrote on Mar 4, 2008 2:51 PM:

" But what if the Christians maintain that God resides at Pizza Doctors, then you gotta go to King St; or if the Jews believe that Yahweh operates out of State Bank, then you gotta eventually take Main Street, or if the Satanists hang out at John's Bar, then 3rd Street is the way to go. "

Re:Mar 3 3:21 wrote on Mar 4, 2008 11:32 AM:

" I never claimed Welch is intolerant, nor am I aware of anyone accusing him of such. I was talking about his claims regarding another poster. Bravo to you. "

Michael Welch: An Odd "Box" You've Put Yourself In!... wrote on Mar 4, 2008 11:25 AM:

" Okay you're saying that your believing in Christianity is as if you thought (fervently!) the ONLY way downtown was on King street?! OBVIOUSLY you'd be wrong. Re: Harsch I'm the one who's saying you'd be no more 'wrong' than one who chose Main or Cass street, say Judaism or Islam. So WHO is being more 'tolerant,' more open minded, EVEN more correct? You'd have to travel down your 'King' street with horse blinders on to make sure you NEVER saw anyone else arriving 'downtown' by any other way. Now THAT's an apt analogy for your intellectual 'predicament'!... "

ToHarsch wrote on Mar 4, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Good. That means the poster also proved he himself is not intolerant either. BTW, WHO is the stalker here? "

Rick Harsch to the Welchy stalker wrote on Mar 4, 2008 9:34 AM:

" Voila! march 3 at 3:21--you have finally proven on your own that logically Welch is not intolerant. Bravo. "

To:Michael wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:21 PM:

" The example is apt as it has to do with the definition of intolerance. Using your example, if I said the only way to get to downtown LaCrosse is on King Street, I would certainly be incorrect, but it would not make me "intolerant" of the other streets. You can't really apply terms like tolerant or intolerant to questions of fact. We disagree on a factual matter-whether there is one road to God or whether there are many roads to God. It is only your opinion that religion is not an only way highway. Sorry, but that is not necessarily reality-it is only your understanding or perception of reality. "

harsch: Chuck P'd Again wrote on Mar 3, 2008 11:04 AM:

" Hi Chuck! Why the focus? Who do you really love? Are you faithfull? Does it make you queasy? Where is it in there? "

Michael Welch: MANY "Paths To God"... wrote on Mar 3, 2008 10:58 AM:

" The analogy is not apt; religion is not an 'only way highway' in reality. As Balthazar the wise man says in that movie 'Ben-Hur' -- 'There are MANY paths to God' and 'the wise man' indeed recognizes that first. If Christianity meets YOUR spiritual needs you are not 'intolerant' to employ it, but you become so if you insist that no one else can come to an understanding of 'God' but by the path YOU choose. One CAN get to the downtown on either Main street OR King OR Cass street for example; one street gets you there as well as the other considering the circumstances of your 'journey'... "

Chuck P wrote on Mar 3, 2008 8:51 AM:

" And as I recall, Michael, that same poster questioned your definition of intolerance. You were asked the following question: If I say Highway 43 is the way to get to Springfield, am I being intolerant of Highway 16? "

Michael Welch: A Visit To A "Rick Planet"... wrote on Mar 1, 2008 12:10 PM:

" Rick is indeed a good host though he's tall and walks fast so the shorter and even some as tall as he must ever walk a la Prince Philip 'a pace behind.' He'll take you where you want to go sure but it's always best to 'trust' Rick's instincts and follow his eclectic itinerary; he's a fine guide and will discover some oddity like Hitler's apartment in Vienna and you'll remember it for the dog poo you step into wherever things Hitlerian manifest. By the way there is a casino in nearby Portoroz with blond Ukrainian prostitutes if that's your style -- the Italians love them! -- but Rick is married and USUALLY 'good.' His wife is a bright beautiful Indian from Madras and has a dry wit made ever 'drier' by living with RPH... "

Michael Welch: Jesus In "Ben-Hur" IS, Well, "Conservative," Not A "Rebel"... wrote on Mar 1, 2008 10:39 AM:

" I hope that intolerant religion is indeed 'on the decline' and by that I mean what a religionist actually wrote on this blog, namely that the Jesus of the gospels was certainly 'intolerant' of others' beliefs so his followers are really 'required' to be. Fair enough; although as I've said watch Willie Wyler's 'Ben-Hur' -- now Wyler's a JEW remember -- and you will see a 'Jesus' who is truly compassionate, pacifist and unintimidated by military power or gross brutality. He offers to lead folks 'by the still waters' away from violence and hatred. Judah Ben-Hur at the end foregoes his personal 'endless war' of vengeance and instead embraces the love of his family; now that's SENSIBLE religious 'conservatism' I'd say... "

a Harsch invitation wrote on Mar 1, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Dear fellow posters: I am inviting Brian G Smith to visit me (we even have a bedroom free) in Izola on the Slovene coast, so I will offer my email: rick.harsh@fpp.edu (note the missspellling of the last name)...but as a fair man, you may all consider yourselves invited, Krusty perhaps above all. If you have any doubts about the salubrious nature of a visit consult Welchy, who has been here. "

to bgs from :^(?? wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:44 PM:

" If you are saying we are all sinners and unworthy of God's Grace as much as David I will agree with you. David was a murderer of Uriah, but that doesn't mean that we can endulge in murder. I'm wondering though, are you one of those who think that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship? If so, do you think that justifies your lifestyle? "

Bugs to Michael wrote on Feb 29, 2008 12:20 PM:

" Yes, a very fine film. I especially enjoyed the location shots in Paris, London, and Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland. I thought the actors all did a fine job, especially Sir Ian McKellan. "

Michael Welch: Possibilities?... wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:57 AM:

" Another aspect of the Graves-Brown-'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' combo of theses that attracts me too is the opportunity for some sort of reconciliation among the major monotheisms. 'King Jesus' as an heir to the throne of David and therefore an 'emissary' of God is yet a mortal man with a 'bloodline' but still representative of a 'kingdom of God' but on earth. Since neither Judaism nor Islam can doctrinally accept another 'God' a Christianity based on a royal heritage through a successor to David (in Graves' book his mother Mary is indeed of the Davidic house as is Joseph) becomes a similar monotheism with much more emphasis on Jewish antiquity. This 'new' Christianity isn't about to replace the 'old' but obviously over time it will develop. I have shall we say 'hopes' for it... "

Hey Mike WElch wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Thanks for the book recommendation...going to Barnes and Nobles later today and will look it up. - BGS "

Why "religion" is on the decline... wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:22 AM:

" The major and revolting hypocrisy of the Christian right...evangelical leaders smoking crack with teenage boy prostitutes, the US republican christian representatives with wide stances and young boy pages...and the hyper judgemental and intolerance of nat'l christian leaders like Dobson and the dead falwell have all contributed to the decline in the US. ANd good riddance. "I wanna run, I want to hide, I want to tear down the walls that hold me inside, I want to reach out and touch the flames...where the streets have no names" (U2). - BrianGSmith "

Hey rick harsch... wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:17 AM:

" Thanks for the invite....I'll be back in Milano in 10 days. "Slav's galore" oh my !!! Haven't had any wine from the area so that's reason enough to go. Italy, as some on these boards may not know, has a rich tradition of wine making as well...especially the robust reds from Piedmonte. we'll have to figure a way to exchange emails that won't expose us to the various nutjobs on these boards from taking them and filling our InBox with their scribbled diarhea... - BrianGSmith.....the sinner "

Michael Welch: Another "King Jesus" By Robert Graves... wrote on Feb 29, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Let me recommend as an 'elder' companion to Dan Brown's more recent book the 1945-6 published 'King Jesus' by the great scholar of Mediterranean antiquity and a real expert on its many religions, Robert Graves. Graves' 'novel' actually posits a Jesus who is the grandson of Herod the Great (of all people!) and so yes a rightful heir. Graves also presents a fascinating look at 1st century CE Israelite temple practice and shows how the Israelite religion drew from and altered Canaanite polytheisms so to create its own impressive and profound monotheism. The book is not a 'precursor' to Brown per se but again is a quite plausible historical rendition of the Jesus story well worth one's time... "

To Harsch wrote on Feb 29, 2008 10:51 AM:

" Who? "

Michael Welch: The Sign Of The Rose: New "Old" Christianities?... wrote on Feb 29, 2008 10:44 AM:

" I watched 'The Da Vinci Code' on DVD the other day; I had seen it in its theater release and had been somewhat disappointed. I was still because the movie (like the novel to be fair) hung between the constant motion of the mobile 'thriller' and the 'quieter' yet more lasting stimulation of the intellectual. However on DVD one can indeed 'slow it down' and repeat parts so I enjoyed it more. I'm not convinced of the premise of a 'Priory of Sion' which protects the continued 'bloodline' of a truly 'King' Jesus but I find it very intriguing and yes plausible. There are so many Jesuses that I must say (again) that Hollywood's various versions are often the most attractive. And Tom Hanks makes a splendid modern 'knight'!... "

harsch to to eddie wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:54 AM:

" Are you ignoring Smith in your post? "

To:Eddie wrote on Feb 29, 2008 8:11 AM:

" Don't take it to heart. Brian responding without comprehending what he is actually responding to is an extremely common occurence on these boards. He responded in a similar way to a previous poster who also never mentioned their personal religious views. He will continue to bait you and others. Some respond to him, but I have learned to just ignore him. "

Harsch is no sinner wrote on Feb 29, 2008 6:20 AM:

" I am stunned to find out that BGS, who I so often agree with, is a sinner. All I can do is join in with the Christians and ask BGS to please stop it. "

harsch to bgs and co. wrote on Feb 29, 2008 6:14 AM:

" I would love to douse my troubles with you and Bugs et al, but I am not willing to leave Slovenia to do it, or at least not to go so far. If however you should land on the Slovene shore i guarantee good domestic wine and Slavs galore. "

Dear ":^( ??" wrote on Feb 29, 2008 1:21 AM:

" I've sinned no more than god's beloved one King David.....you need to get on gods good side. He don't like softies and the prostrate....he likes warriors. "

Dear Planet Sleestak wrote on Feb 29, 2008 1:19 AM:

" You are boring and give me gas. Your posts are visual flatulence. - BrianGodSmith "

Eddie wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:57 PM:

" Brian G. Smith, you and others completely misunderstood my post (9:43pm). I was simply making an observation about human nature and how people often change their worldviews as they go through life, be they religious views or non-religious views. Also, I made no mention of "fate", nor did I mention my personal religious views. Some of you people need to actually READ what people write and reflect on it before commenting. You are embarrassing yourselves. "

Planet Stasiak to BGS wrote on Feb 28, 2008 2:24 PM:

" The post by Curry Man is clear cut, at least to me. The fact it isn't to you is proof you are having trouble keeping up. Anyway, the post I referenced is the 3:15post to Bugs. Your response simply made no sense given what the post said. That is what I stated in words and I was direct. Sorry you don't see it that way. The fact you are angry and infuriated has nothing to do with your response(or lack thereof)to my 2:14pm post. I draw that conclusion by how you address other posters who don't share your views. Lets see...what else...oh, I have seen angry puppies on occasion. Finally, not to nitpick, but you stated you were making one last point to me at 12:20. Then, 8 minutes later, you proceeded to address me again. "

:^( ?? wrote on Feb 28, 2008 2:14 PM:

" i believe bgs is living a life that involves things that God calls sin. if he recognizes God, then he must come face to face with his lifestyle choices. nobody wants to give up sins that give themselves temporary pleasure, so bgs chooses to ignore God so that he can embrace his sin. for bgs and everyone, recognizing the truth of God involves recognizing that we are not God and are subserviant to a higher being. "

Bugs to Brian wrote on Feb 28, 2008 1:27 PM:

" Harsch hangs his hat in Slovenia, and I try to stay out of taverns, but thanks for the invite. When I have my martini tonight, I' ll raise a toast to BGS, Mike Welch, Harsch and JRR Tolkien "

Bugs to 11:14 am wrote on Feb 28, 2008 1:21 PM:

" And good luck to you. Thanks for the conversation. "

Michael Welch: My Karma Trumps Your Dogma!... wrote on Feb 28, 2008 1:18 PM:

" Americans want money and some fun mainly; some also find reading and thinking interesting and those that do it not really 'threatening.' (Many even know some 'big words' and try to use them.) American culture is basically aimed at the middling but nonetheless it has to be constructed by smarter than usual guys. Many movies for example ARE 'interesting' at the least; Daniel Day Lewis won his Oscar last Sunday for playing in a film based on a 1920s novel ('Oil!') by a prolific socialist writer and 'activist' named Upton Sinclair. 'Ben Hur' (see below) is a pretty good movie about 'Christ' -- made by a Jewish director (William Wyler) and a Jewish producer (Sam Zimbalist). So go figure: the BEST thing about the US IS its diversity and tolerance, not anyone's religious dogmatism... "

Hey Mike Welch wrote on Feb 28, 2008 12:36 PM:

" Interesting post. I will add that ALL of my Jewish classmates from my swanky EastCoast (safety school) University ate what they wanted, dated whoever they wanted and DID NOT like the Israeli government's hardline approach to Palestine. I have little experience in the US Muslim community but I will state that where I am in the EU it's 50-50.....assimilators and conservatives. I go to an Islamic butcher where they all know I'm an 'merican. They wear western clothes, love basketball and watch wheel of fortune. My brother lived/worked outside Dee-troit and had a mixed experience with that huge Muslim population. I think, over time, they will assimilate just like the Eastern Jews did, just like the Ruskies are, etc... "

Dear Planet Stesiak wrote on Feb 28, 2008 12:28 PM:

" You make huge assumptions in you 8:59 am post of today. You assume the Bible is the word of God or contains stories and info about God. It ain't...it don't. I speak with the Spirit of Mark Twain. Check him out. It may be that you insult god by pretending to "know" god thru a book written by men full of contradictions. Yes, the gospels were written by four men...but all, according to bible thumpers beliefs, were guided by God. So why the diverse accounts of the Resurrection if one god was guiding the 4 writers? I believe that will send you spinning in circles like a moth hitting the blue bug light. - BGS "

Last point to the Sleestak !!! wrote on Feb 28, 2008 12:20 PM:

" No. The confusion is on your side. I do not claim to know nor understand everything about God. Anyone paying half-as attention knows so. Heck, I'm not even sure there is a God. My search continues and will until the day I draw my last breath. I pity the fools who seem to know it all by hiding behind a bible they've never read. The 2:15 post you keep refering to by "curry man" is hardly clearcut. I answered it as I saw fit. That's life. You have a problem why not adress the answer in words rather than a puzzle of various posting times and dates? Is that how our candidates debate...."Senator McCain...your reply at 4:45 pm to Huckabee's statement on 2/27 at 2:47 pm doesn't jive with your initial statement on 1/19 at 5:55pm....why are you such a loser sir?" "

Dear Planet Sleestak wrote on Feb 28, 2008 12:08 PM:

" I never read nor responded to you "2:14 pm" post of yesterday so how can you draw the conclusion I am an "angry puppy"? First off....who the hell has ever seen an "angry puppy"? Anyone? Kinda oxyMORONic if you ask me (and I'm sure others will agree). Secondly...I'm living the life of a rockstar...a bon vivant. Feel fortunate I've taken time to attempt to set you on your own personal road to Damascus (or Rio). In essence I am working to FREE yourself from the shackles of organized religion. - BrianGSmith "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:58 AM:

" Dear Mr. Harsch....I will neither confirm nor deny the supposition that I am or am not[a] god. BTW....are you in Lacrosse or still overseas. If in Lacrosse why not meet up with Bugs, myself and other fellow travelers at a local tavern for a beverage or two and some hearty laughs? You up for that Bugs? "

BGS to Planet Sleestak wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:55 AM:

" Again....you have said nothing of value. If you check out your post from 1/23/07 at 4:33 pm and "D-bags" responses at 5:35 and 5:45 pm you'd see it doesn't make sense when one reads your follow up at 6:78 am the next day. Of course you displayed some cerebral function in your subsequent 2/11/08 post at 4:09 pm and 4:23 pm respectively but that was negated by your 6:33 post two weeks later. Todays post reads like national lotto numbers too. Man you are a good debater and would do well on a stage. Go back to work, your 11:45 am Tea break is long over. We all can see your inabilty to address a topic, thusly exposing you as lightweight. Come back when you can directly answer a question. "

Refreshing! wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:53 AM:

" This religion discussion is much more interesting than the new political one. And I am happy to see that some people in the La Crosse area actually think rather than blindly follow. How refreshing! I eagerly await the next discussion regarding religion. I would say you have a hot topic considering all the posts. How wonderful that we live in a country where we can debate this issue. Although I would say LaCrosse can be a difficult area to be a free thinker. As someone new to this blog, all of the referrals to posts at different times is very confusing and idiotic. "

To:Bugs wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:14 AM:

" Again, I would just call it a different perspective as opposed to a contradiction. I find it very compelling that he was seen at all. Who happened to see him first just isn't that important to me. I try to look at the big picture. But, if these things are important to you, there are many websites that deal with difficulties within the Bible. Hopefully, your disdain for organized religion doesn't prevent you from finding the answers to your questions. Good luck to you. "

To:Harsch wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:08 AM:

" No, I wouldn't say that. I would say it was more that Brian seemed so angry and confused and infuriated at not understanding the Bible and everything God did, that a couple of the posters merely pointed out that since he is not God, it isn't unusual that he wouldn't necessarily understand everything. "

Michael Welch: MOST American Christians Are "Okay"... wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:56 AM:

" Most Christians are pretty sensible about their religion; i. e. they don't obsess about its contradictions but think of Jesus more as an example of 'niceness' and what one should ASPIRE to be morally, and anyway he 'forgives' them when they don't hit his very very high mark. Generally they appreciate the American secular system and the 'neutrality' of the constitution; they don't mind, on occasion, presidents speaking ecumenical pieties for example -- in fact they expect such -- but they don't want 'policies' developed along ancient biblical regulations. As for 'Bible believing' I really doubt MOST Christians ever read the book; they are only familiar with the 'sanitized' Sunday school versions... "

Michael Welch: "One" God Is Enough Trouble?... wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Americans are ostensibly more religious than most Europeans -- i. e. they say they 'believe in God' but it depends on how you define that problematic and emcompassing term. I think Jews for instance primarily 'believe in Jews'; i. e. they've experienced for a millennium and a half periodic Christian persecution 'peaking' with the Hitler 'obsession.' They are a majority nowhere but in Israel; they HAVE to live with goyim all around (even in Israel for that matter!) but the hell if they're gonna buckle to them; they're gonna match them and be 'better' than they in education, success, etc. The 'Jesus' pushed at them (see the recent Coulter bit) is a goyished up image made decidedly unattractive; and they have enough trouble with the one God they have -- who needs another or a 'three-in-one'?... "

Michael Welch: American Jews And American Muslims... wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:35 AM:

" Jews in the US have been in an odd position; actually the LACK of persecution has resulted in 'mixed' marriages with goyim and a more casual ethnic approach to being Jewish -- you eat 'traditional' food once in a while, maybe observe passover as many Christians attend Christmas and Easter services and skip the rest of Sundays. American Jews in other words are -- many of them -- pretty secularized. Muslims are however much less so; consequently less intermarriage -- very much less I'd guess -- and greater observance. In time that may change to follow the Jewish 'pattern' -- as for fewer divorces I dunno: Jews are probably more fatalistic (who says I can get 'better'?) and Muslims more religiously conservative?... "

Bugs to 9:10 am wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:34 AM:

" Well, one gospel says the resurrected Jesus was first seen by Mary Magdalene, who mistook him for the gardner; another says the first to see Jesus was Peter. Isn't this a contradiction? One of many in the Bible. I'd say. "

rick harsch wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:07 AM:

" So the main point of several posters is that BGSmith is not God? "

Froto wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Attempting to persuade others through open discussions is called debating, this is a good thing. Because in an honest debate no one is FORCING anyone to accept a position. The church goes beyond this. They force through threats of excomunications, ostracizing, characater assasinations, and in days of old murdering, butchering, torchering all non-believers. this is documented fact not fiction.
The Vatican today still has a chief "Inquisitor" and the office of the "Inquisition" is still operating although on a more subdued level, no outright killings anymore. In 1965, I beieve it was they again changed the name of the Inquisitor office to a more mundane non-challenging one.. "

To:Bugs wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:10 AM:

" That is the mistake a lot of people make. 4 versions of the same event doesn't mean they are contradictory. They enhance one another-it is the event told from 4 different perspectives. What reason do you have to doubt the honesty or integrity of the Gospel writers? Is it only because the supernatural is involved? "

To:Bugs wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:07 AM:

" He didn't just deviate from the subject. He addressed a specific poster in a way that showed he didn't even understand the post. My point is, if you can't follow a conversation or keep up, why not just let the others converse? You are cutting Brian a lot of slack, and that is your prerogative,but you must admit his response to the poster showed a lack of understanding of the post. "

Planet Stasiak wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:02 AM:

" It appears my post yesterday at 2:14 has been confirmed. Brian is one angry, infuriated puppy. "

Planet Stasiak to Brian wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:59 AM:

" Brian, I will say it again. If you understood everything God did and why He did it, you would be God. Since you appeared to have trouble deciphering what this meant the first time, let be break it down for you: Since you don't understand everything God did, that is not an indication that a)there is no God or b)God was wrong or c)a combination of a and b. The only thing it is an indication of is that you aren't God. "

To:Eddie wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:51 AM:

" The irony, of course, is that this is how you see things, and you are attempting to persuade others to also see things this way. Your concern, like everyones elses, appears to make everyone see the world exactly as you see it. "

Froto to Eddie wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:51 AM:

" Right you are. that pretty well sums it up.
Control has always been the overiding issue with the Religions. They have completely bastardized the search for the meaning of our existance. All that for money, power and control. History backs that up 100% if the religious have enough guts to read it and take their heads out of the sand. "

Dear Eddie wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:45 AM:

" How do you know about human fate? The fate you believers speak of is derived from your ancient man written texts.-BrianGSmith
"

DJ: wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:43 AM:

" .... ahh yes, devolve to europe. Now, there's a worthy goal. I'm underwhelmed! No thanks. "

To:Midwest Atheist wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:33 AM:

" So, who is the leader of your "free thinkers" group? You know, the one that explains to everyone how to freely think. "

Mandy to 9:03pm wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:29 AM:

" I am a person with religious beliefs and convictions. Yet, I am also a logical and reasonable person. Your post implies the two are exclusive, but that is not the case. If you can't acknowledge that it is possible for people who don't share your beliefs to be logical and reasonable, you lose all credibility. "

Planet Stasiak to BGS wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:25 AM:

" Sorry, Brian, but I found the point the previous poster made valid. If you don't even understand the meaning of the post made on 2/26 at 3:15pm, why is it any surprise that you can't understand the Bible? Perhaps you are alleging that the response at 4:47pm was an impostor trying to make you look foolish? If that is the case, they did a good job. I hope this response is "direct" enough for you. "

Bugs Raplin wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:54 AM:

" Evidence that demands a verdict? Well, my verdict is that you can't trust the evidence. The Bible is full of errors and contradictions. Just look at the resurrection story in the 4 gospels. You've got 4 different versions of that supposed event. "

Bugs to 3:27 pm wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:50 AM:

" I think Brian's posts are interesting and he's obviously passionate in his disdain for organized religion, as am I. If, in your opinion, he deviates from the conversation, so what? I just thought your comment about going away if you can't act like an adult was an immature way of dealing with the situation. "

Midwest Atheist wrote on Feb 27, 2008 11:01 PM:

" It is reassuring that the fastest growing group is the non-believers.

For non-believers in the La Crosse area, you are not alone. Join the La Crosse Area Freethought Society! For more info contact midwestatheist@yahoo.com. "

Eddie wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:43 PM:

" Religion has always been in a state of change [or "evolution", to please all you Creationists....;-)]. As people migrate through geographical regions to build new homes and lives, so do they move through different worldviews in an effort to build a better understanding of their lives.

The journey itself is the greatest reward, although there are those who will never understand that. They are more concerned with making everyone stand still and see the world exactly the way they see it.

We travelers must resolve to leave those statues far behind us as we continue our journeys. "

whospeaksforearth wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:03 PM:

" there's no denying the fact that religious belief as a whole is on the decline...people are waking up and using logic and reason...maybe we'll catch up to europe one of these days "

harsch to sanders wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:48 PM:

" how many gary habermas', etc. are there? "

Dear "To Bugs" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:37 PM:

" More jibberish from you. Why are you so gutless? Have we exposed your lack of biblical knowledge? Has your faith been rattled and your undergarments soiled? "

Dear "To 2:18 pm" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:34 PM:

" It's obvious you're confused. You don't understand other peoples posts, you can't address a single topic.....you've said absolutely nothing substantive. Until you provide something...a fulfilled prophecy...proof god gives a rats a$$ about you or some podunk Michigan town.....you're just taking up space. To each his own, I was hoping for a vigorous debate on religion, the bible and god....instead I find whiners and moaners playing silly empty games. - BGS "

Hey Planet Sleestak wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:29 PM:

" Who claims to know God? I certainly don't make that claim. I certainly am convinced the Bible be nothing mo than tribal humans trying to explain their existence and rationalize their actions. It's much easier to chase women, children, the elderly and their domesticated animals into the woods and slaughter them all with the sword if you got "god" telling you to. I guarantee I live alife which adheres MUCH, MUCH more closely to the teachings of Jesus Christ than any of you or other anonymous faux-christians on these boards. We got dufuses here wqho keep referencing otherStrobel but can't put down a single idea from Stroble or from tyheir own brains....I find that absolutely WEAK. - BGS "

Dear "To:BGS 9:45am" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:24 PM:

" I had to get a new Passport because my old one was chock full....no space left. After snorkeling in the Indian Ocean I was skiing in Crans-Montana Switzerland...now I'm in the US....in the region....I'll soon be off to Bolivia to complete a Municipal Waste project that makes money. I'm annoyed my Nation displays such ignorance which is best reflected in the rise of evangelicals who know nothing of the bible...the 'word of god.' I'm looking for any of you bible bozos to enlighten me...or Bugs. Can't you handle the call? If you know "god" so well please help us who are still on the quest. - BrianGSmith "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:11 PM:

" I love it. We have a bunch of (or is it one) anonymous posters filling responses to my posts with times and dates of other posts on other blogs. The failure of these people to offer anything direct or conclusive says it all.....they can't. My posts have been diesel....solid. SO until someone can confront me directly I can't be bothered. Still looking for a bible thumper to offer one "fulfilled prophecy"....just one itsy-bitsy example. Mr. Harsch...thanks for the back-up while I was at the gym. "

To:whospeaksforearth wrote on Feb 27, 2008 4:54 PM:

" My sentiment also. With that statistic and this Blog and the other God in government Blog...there might just be hope for us yet. "

To:whospeaksforarth wrote on Feb 27, 2008 4:50 PM:

" I agree. There is definitely hope. Even if it was 2 out of 3, there would still be hope. No odds are insurmountable. Anyway, we can take solace in the fact that the majority, at least in this case, is right. "

harsch to straightforward blogmeister wrote on Feb 27, 2008 4:32 PM:

" Thank you for the explanation of the purpose of blogging, the yo-yo effect (yes, of course there is a double meaning). "

whospeaksforearth wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:52 PM:

" "...nearly one in every three 18 to 29-year olds professing no specific religious identification."

there is hope for us yet "

To:2:18pm wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:34 PM:

" I am confused. Isn't part of participating in a blog discussion scrolling the blog and reading other posts, then scrolling some more and reading responses to their posts? Maybe adding your own posts on occassion? I don't get what you were mocking? If the poster you were attempting to mock referenced others actual posts, that seems part & parcel of blogging. But to flat out make up imaginary posts and posters is just plain silly. Maybe you should curtail your attempts at humor and stick to the subject. "

To:Bugs wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:27 PM:

" Are you saying the point I made regarding his seeming inability to follow the conversation was not valid? Or, are you saying that my point was valid, but that in your opinion I chose an immature way to make my point? I really would like your honest opinion regarding my point, and if it appeared to you the original poster made ANY claims whatsoever regarding the hereafter. "

harsch wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:23 PM:

" I don't know what a troll means in blog vocabulary, but I certainly tell no lies, only satirize at times. And if anyone sincerely believes they can educate me I welcome their attempts--I sincerely love learning. "

harsch to jimmy gillman wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:18 PM:

" I was mocking a poster who wanted readers to scroll and search and search and scroll and...the 666 was just for the religious touch...nothing real or personal intended (feel free not to post this, or do post it if you think it's necessary) "

Planet Stasiak on Faith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:14 PM:

" You would not believe how absolutely infuriated some people get whenever someone alleges that there may actually be a (gasp!) rational basis for their faith. "

Planet Stasiak to Brian G Smith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:11 PM:

" If you understood everything God did and why He did it, you would be God. "

Bugs to 1:50 pm wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:05 PM:

" Sorry, I don't agree. There's a mature way to dissent from BGS, and there's an immature way. You chose the latter. "

To:Dear Mike Sanders wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:00 PM:

" The context is provided. It is this blog and this discussion. I will be happy to provide an example of your lack of ability to follow a given conversation right on this blog. The post yesterday at 3:15pm. Then, your response to that post at 4:47pm. Your cries of intangible context and indirect claims are bunk. You simply can't follow a conversation-the posts are right here for anyone to scroll down and read. "

9:01am to Bugs wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:50 PM:

" In this case, you would be wrong. I welcome open and frank discussion, but when people can't even follow the conversation, it gets frustrating. I think if you were to be fair, you would see that the point I made regarding BGS' posts is a valid point. Nowhere did the poster that he addressed make any claims about the hereafter. "

Wild Rumor vis a vis 6:66 wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:48 PM:

" I refuse to believe that Jimmy is the anti-Christ. "

Mike Sanders to Brian wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:46 PM:

" Next time when you fly, why don't you book a flight next to a Gary Habermas or a Lee Strobel or a Dr David Menton? We only have your word on how the conversation went with this supposed priest. How about providing evidence or a source for your claims? That seems fair. His confusion probably stemmed from the fact that your conversations in person are probably as full of lunacy and absurdity as your posts on these blogs noted below. Yeah, Brian, I would love to see you in a debate with some of these heavyweights. You would probably fare the same as that evolutionist did at UWL a couple years ago after his discussion with Menton. "

To:BGS 9:45am wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:35 PM:

" Unfortunately, it appears you aren't living a full life. You seem too full of anger and bitterness to do so. Although I find your statements crass and immature, I do sincerely wish you the best. "

To:to 5:57pm wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:31 PM:

" Of course, to you "open-minded" means "agree with me". "

To:Jimmy wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Jimmy, unfortunately I think you just discovered what most of us did awhile back. Harsch is a troll, and there is actually no meaning to the phrase you question. He is just trying to stir things up with his lies regarding other posters and posts. This is a common occurence on your blogs. Sometimes I respond. Most of the time I take the attitude "If you can't educate them, ignore them." "

Come on, everyone... wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:26 PM:

" At least attempt to be fair to each poster. BGS is fond of requesting references and citing passages from the Bible periodically. So, that begs the question: Why all the heat on Sanders and others for citing BGS' own posts to point out his contradictions and absurdity? Come on, fair is fair. The 9:01am poster this morning made an extremely valid point. They referenced his posts on this same blog. No matter what your beliefs are, that poster is right on. "

Jimmy to Harsch wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:17 PM:

" I'm curious and, frankly, I don't follow; what do you mean, "which was seconded by Gillman himself at 6:66." To what are you referring? "

DJ: wrote on Feb 27, 2008 12:59 PM:

" .... probably the poster here with the most likely credibility to their argument is Michael, and I fear he has most of it wrong. Sorry, dedicated amateurs, at best. "

New Life wrote on Feb 27, 2008 11:54 AM:

" I'm not surprised that the Catholic "faith" took a big hit. Having grown up around Catholicism my whole life and studying it, I have found Catholicism to be not an issue of Faith in God but a faith in the Catholic church hierarchy. The more people read their Bibles and ask questions, the errors of the Catholic church become more evident. I am also thankful for the internet which gives people many opportunities to study both sides of a question without the emotion.

I have also found that alot of people call themselves Christians, not because they are trying to follow Christ, but simply because they are American or were baptised as an infant. I think God requires more from us then just getting sprinkled as a baby. "

Harsch: The truth about BGS wrote on Feb 27, 2008 11:07 AM:

" can be found by scrolling down to the 'Okay I Got the Wrong Date...' and reading the 8:41 post which he answer absurdly at 10:33, only to contradict himself by maintaining electronic silence at 3:09, and then, get this, blathering like a polio-stricken nun the next day at 7:55 a.m., a post answered with delightful acerbity at 9:45, prompting a virtual confessional of bad faith by anonymous masquerading as BGS at 2:22, which was seconded at 6:66 by Gillman himself, before Welchy completely broke his back at 9:16, as you can see the following morning at 5 (5!) with a virtual repeat of the confession. Look it up. "

harsch wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:53 AM:

" Make that bg smith who merely asked for a reference.
regarding defensiveness, when one discovers it where it ain't, one is, well, defensive. "

harsch wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:51 AM:

" bg smith asked for a reference--that seems fair. "

To 5:57 PM wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:49 AM:

" I just read the reply to your questions. and you were told of the reliabiltiy etc of the gospel writers and eye wittness accounts etc.

Don't waste any more time. you are dealing here with fanatacism not reality. Matter of fact Blind fanatacism, religious fanatacism, people like this are beyond reason. They are incapable of open minded discussions. "

Dear Jimmy Gilman wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:19 AM:

" Here is alink to the actual Israeli poll showing 64% of Israelis want direct negotiations with Hamas to end the violence. Why this gets no traction only feeds into conspiratorial theories. - Brian GSmith http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958473.html "

Dear Jimmy Gilman wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:17 AM:

" Here is a great article from which to launch a new blog post....it's about a survey of Israeli's which shows that the majority of Israeli's want to negotiate with HAMAS. The questions are why the Israeli leadership, US Corporate media and our leaderhosen fail to present this amazing fact. - BrianGSmith
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/27/hamas/ "

Chuck P wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:09 AM:

" Brian, I think you should just own up to the fact that your posts on these blogs are a personal failure. Your charade is painful to watch. "

Dear Mike Sanders wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:45 AM:

" You've opened nothing save the chasm of your ignorance. This is reflected in your inability to post anything tangible....only weak personal attacks. Go ahead....cite a fulfilled prophecy or a study that shows how many of the college educated are true bible believers. I'd love to see a study/survey that reveals how many folks claiming christianity have ever read the bible...the word of god. I think you fall in the crowd of fearful blind follower....hedge betting. I know my "fate" when I die.....and it is death....wormfood. This understanding gives me the power to live a full life in the here and now....free from silly ritual and beliefs in stories that go beyond bizarre. - BGS "

Bugs to 9:01 am wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:43 AM:

" Whenever I see a comment like.."go away and let the adults talk" I automatically conclude that the person saying that is actually somewhat afraid that his beliefs are being seriously challenged. "

RE "To Eddie and Harsch" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:36 AM:

" Again...no poster supporting the beleif that most educated 'mericans have read the bible and beleive it as gods word has ever offered any factual info/studies/links to support such a claim. The universities are void of bible believers....any educated person readng the entire bible will find it's depiction of god reprehensible at best. Sadly....you and most believers have never read the bible in its entirety. I sat next to a priest on my recen flight from Philly to Chicago and had him stammering in an effort to respond to my few simple questions regarding the validity and reason of numerous biblical passages. - BGS "

Dear Mike Sanders wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:31 AM:

" You don't have to apologize to me.....although you have great difficulty in stating anything worthy of response. Your continuos allusions to various past postings of mine by jotting the various times I posted without offering any tangible context and response is pathetic. So come on bible boy.....put out something direct instead of sophomoric 'claims'. No one is gonna go back and read a post from 2-13 on another thread...so be a big boy and put into words your problems with my various arguments.....or go back to Mommy's lap.- BGS "

Dear "To:5:57pm" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:24 AM:

" Please, for the love of God, tell us which Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled. If eyewitness accounts are written in stone then you gotta believe the Mormon story of metal plates in Utah mountains given to Smith from the angel Moroni.....or that Jimmy Carter saw a UFO. But please, please, please share with us a prophecy fulfilled (so I can smack it down with truth). - BGS "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:21 AM:

" I find the "please go away' screes a certain sign that I am dealing with infantile believers in Santa. The inability to address questions directly reflects a level of immaturity one often finds on the playground. I'm not going away so ignore me or try to directly respond. why can't 'you christians' stop divorcing each other with divorce rates exponentially higher than jews and muslims? "

WOW wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:19 AM:

" To the person re: if I believe in God. Standard come back this question, which if analyzed can create as many answers as their are stars in the sky. As an intelligent human being, surely you are more than capable of reading all sides of the issue with an open mind, "open mind being the key here". If you believe that the bible is the Word of God then your mind is closed and any discussions with you is like talking to an inanimate object. Sorry but I learned long ago that it is a complete waste of time preaching to the choir. "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:17 AM:

" The original post to Bugs speaks of "fate".....who here knows anyones "fate" aside from our certain death. Whoever wrote Bugs made big, unprovable assumptions. I'm typing as slow as I can for your benefit. It is understandable that a bible believer will have trouble with such an out-of-the-box question.....but keep trying. "

RE: Interesting figures post wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:10 AM:

" The "interesting figures" post offered no evidence....no source for the claims. Thus rendering the point moot. rendering your support for that point even mooter. - BGS "

Dear "Eddie" wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:08 AM:

" Amen brother. I'd like to see a survey of those who claim to be chrisitan....just how many have read the Bible from cover to cover.

But back to this article Jimmy put out.....why do muslims and Jewish folk hav divorce rates far, far, far lower than the "marriage amendment" christians of the USA? - BGS "

To:Brian G Smith wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:01 AM:

" What is it with you and reading comprehension? 2/26 3:15pm addressed Bugs. You responded at 4:47pm. Will you please share with us WHERE the poster shared ANY belief regarding anyones fate after death? Let me break it down for you: When a post is addressed "to -" , and then the post says "given what you believe...", they are more than likely referring to the beliefs of the poster they are addressing, not themselves. Why is this so hard for you? As another poster stated, please go away and let the adults talk. "

To:5:57pm wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:53 AM:

" Fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, reliability and trustworthiness of the Bibles authors, eyewitness accounts of miracles, eyewitness accounts of people who saw Jesus after the crucifixion,etc. "

To:Eddie wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:48 AM:

" I will agree with you regarding "blind faith". But, you must remember that "blind faith" is much different than examining the evidence and coming to a reasoned decision to put your faith in Christ. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. To claim otherwise is closed minded and, imho, short-sighted. Intelligent, reasonable people can certainly disagree on the existence of the supernatural, and whether and how God used supernatural phenomena to interact with man. "

Mike Sanders re BGS wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:44 AM:

" 2/13 must have been a bad day for BGS. Go to the "religious right leaders losing clout" blog and see the post at 8:34am on that day. Then, see BGS response at 9:41am. That speaks for itself. Then, see BGS 10:46am as he attempts to join the adults once again. Of course, the 12:41pm post put an end to that attempt. Sorry to open that can of worms again, Brian, but since you enjoy throwing around the phrase "flawed texts", I thought it was apropos. Your posts are not only flawed, but devoid of all congruity and logic. The hypocrisy,lunacy, and absurdity of your posts is mind-boggling. "

Dearest Brian wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:37 AM:

" How are things in the basement? Is Star Trek coming on soon? "

To:Eddie and Harsch wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:26 AM:

" Regarding the "interesting figures" post. Why are you two so defensive? As I read the post, the poster is simply giving the figures. He is not drawing any conclusions or making any value judgments. This is what Jimmy did in his article. You may as well respond "so what?" after each of Jimmys sentences. The poster was providing information-that is all. Neither of you appear to dispute the fact that most educated people in this country are Christians. Draw your own conclusions. "

Eddie wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:00 AM:

" One will find, after doing REAl research, that the majority of Americans do believe in a god and an afterlife, but that the majority do NOT take the Bible literally as the Absolute Word of God. In fact, the more educated one is, the LESS likely one will submit to blind faith and ancient superstitions. "

Bugs to Curry Man wrote on Feb 27, 2008 7:50 AM:

" Please see Brian's 4:47 pm posting; oh, and a welcome back to BGS; always good to read your stuff; also, good postings from Michael; thanks again to Jimmy for the topic "

As one ages wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:21 AM:

" the non-believers tend to hedge their bet. It might have something to do with the realization that they might be wrong about life after death, etc. It will most likely happen to a number of the non-believers who have posted here. Never say never! "

harsch: BGS is full of issues. wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:41 AM:

" Best line of this series. BGS is full of issues. What does that mean? Again I will point out, though, that of course more than half of college educated people in a Christian country believe in the Christian Bible. So do the majority of female 37 year old epileptics. And so most college educated Egyptians believe in the Koran. So what. "

To 4:59 pm poster wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:33 PM:

" Where is your evidence that "most educated people in this country consider themselves Bible believing Christians"? "

To:3:13pm wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:57 PM:

" Real research? Evidence? Josh McDowell? Interesting......Could you give some of the evidence that McDowell found so compelling? What is it? "

To: Enlightened Ones wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:18 PM:

" Please chime in on the discussion "City Keeps "God" in their mission statement" under The Buzz. "

Curry Man attempting clarification wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:03 PM:

" I defer to the 3:15pm poster. "

To:BGS wrote on Feb 26, 2008 4:59 PM:

" Your posts as documented on the religious right leaders blog are bunk, so why should we trust what you say? If necessary, I can look up the times of your posts and remind everyone how bizarre and illogical and full of issues you are. Do you really want me to do that again? I can't believe that you doubt that most educated people in this country consider themselves Bible believing Christians. Even members of other religious groups, and the American Atheists acknowledge this. "

Dear Mike Welch... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 4:49 PM:

" Good posts. As this slips into the regular bible versus reason debate what say ye about the extremely low Jewish and Muslim divorce rates when compared to the out of control Chrisitan divorce rates? Do you think an Amendment to the Constitution is the remedy? - BrianGSmith "

Dear "To:Bugs" wrote on Feb 26, 2008 4:47 PM:

" How do you know about human fate? Believers and non-believers all share the same fate....we all die. Other than death the rest is all speculation.....unless you got some solid proof. The "fate" you believers speak of is derived from your ancient man written and flawed texts. - BrianGSmith "

harsch on figures wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:54 PM:

" I would guess that in a professed Christian nation more than half of college educated folk would respond that they are 'Bible-believing Christians'. The question that strikes me is: so what? You may also find that 73% of avowed atheists have college degrees. again: so what. "

Michael Welch: Herr Professor Has Already Submitted "The Verdict"... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:52 PM:

" 'God' of course is perfectly capable of 'communicating with people' -- although to some it seems not if they are Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists? -- because 'God' is the superego and ultimate parental (usually 'father' for the past two millennia but not always) figure in your head. The 'evidence' is always that a religion exists -- millions of Muslims have decided that Muhammed couldn't have 'made up' the Koran since generations since have believed and even the most educated Muslims do eh?! One projects a God (again see Freud) from one's compilation of parental powers which, when an infant, appear 'absolute' but when you grow up you learn your parents are 'only human' and you want an immortal constant protector-explainer of this confusing world... "

To:Bugs wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:15 PM:

" Curry Man has a point. Even given what YOU believe, non believers actual fate is not affected one way or the other. So, how would the world be better off? "

To:Wow wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:13 PM:

" If you like real research, I recommend the book "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Out of curiosity, why do you not think people in Biblical times could have communicated with God? Do you not believe in God, or do you believe God was not capable of communicating with people? "

Michael Welch: Imagined "Realities"... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:12 PM:

" There's been a huge blow up on this blog recently about what constitutes religious intolerance; I was reminded that the Jesus of the gospels is surely 'intolerant' of other beliefs not in agreement with his. That was indeed an apt point -- and it leads into the 'Bugs' critique below. As long as religious believers (in ANY religion -- that's an important emphasis) are adamant that there is only ONE religious truth and it is the one they believe in, then not only does theoretical 'hell' come into play but the earthly 'hells' that are the results of such attitudes. An enemy going to hell is deemed in thrall to 'evil' and this 'evil' is to be resisted, even violently. From inquisitions to crusades to our current wars, religious perception even of that imagined 'reality' matters... "

Michael Welch: Jesuses Courtesy Hollywood Jews -- The Best Ones!... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:14 PM:

" Most of the people who say they believe in the Bible LITERALLY as some sort combination history-science compendium for all time have read very little of it; they 'know it' mostly from sermons and Sunday school stories. The 'best' Jesus (or Jesuses) I'd say are in the movies -- hooray for Hollywood hmm!? The most 'accurate' Jesus re: the gospels is the homosexual Italian filmmaker Pier Paolo Pasolini's stark gripping 'The Gospel According to St Matthew' which includes both miracles and rants. MY personal favorite is the rather 'feminized' Jesus (long hair flowing, seen only from behind) in William Wyler's 1959 'Ben Hur' -- unflinching motherliness in the face of crude Roman masculine aggression: 'I felt his words take the sword out of my hand' wonders Chuck Heston; indeed... "

Bugs to Curry Man wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:12 PM:

" I'm not sure I'm following you. Bugs was up late last night reading Lord of the Rings and he's a little tired right now. Please clarify your position, if you can, and I'll respond tomorrow. "

Dear "Curry man" wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:06 PM:

" Are you saying there is a hell? I, and others here, believe hell is a literary creation used to keep the sheep in line. "

Michael Welch: Several "Jesuses" To Choose -- But Not The "Real" One... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:02 PM:

" The Catholic church did not of course 'create Jesus'; it simply ratified the ONLY possible Jesus, the spiritual mystical one. Most Christians 'believe' in that Jesus -- they have to because the historical, as Albert Schweitzer quite rightly discerned, is non-existent, 'buried' (literally no doubt) in the layers of time. The Jesus in the gospels does have rather multiple personalities -- he is extremely generous and forgiving at times and then he switches into rages, denouncing the pharisaical teaching sect AND the sadducean temple ritualizers. He sounds sometimes like an essene and like them he's surely an apocalyptic who thinks the end of the world IS at hand (circa 1st century CE). He's attractive and disturbing and so very fascinating... "

Dear WOW wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Great post. - BrianGSmith "

Dear "Bugs" wrote on Feb 26, 2008 2:01 PM:

" I think caling the 3 alleged monotheistic religions..Judaism, Christianity and Islam...."great" is misleading. Great at what? I think Deism is great, same with Science. I know you agree. - BrianGSmith "

Dear "Interesting Figures" wrote on Feb 26, 2008 1:57 PM:

" Your claim "that the majority of educated(college degree or higher) people in the United States consider themselves Bible-believing Christians" is bunk without a link or reference. I've seen no studies that confirm your view so if you have some, pass it on. IMHO the most educated 'mericans dismiss the Bible, go to church 2-3 times a year and believe in the 'here and now" rather than religious fantasy and doom. - BrianGSmith "

Wow. wrote on Feb 26, 2008 12:29 PM:

" Lets see. The catholic church created a mystical Jesus, as far removed from the real Jesus and gunslingers of the western novels were removed from the true cowboys of the time.
The amazing thing is to see modern intelligent people really believe biblical people spoke with God and God had conversations with them. The history book of biblical times is held up in church and people proclaim it the word of God. Blind leading the Blind. Ingnorance is Bliss. WE would not want to do real research of history to find out the truth. We would rather act like a bunch of Apes as long as the bananas keep coming we will follow anything. "

Bugs Raplin wrote on Feb 26, 2008 12:18 PM:

" Remember that old 3 Stooges bit...Niagra Falls...Niagra Falls...slowly I turned..step by step...inch by inch...well, Jimmy's religious-topic blogs are hard to resist; thanks Jimmy. "

Curry Man to Bugs wrote on Feb 26, 2008 12:17 PM:

" But that begs the question, aren't you "blaming the messenger", so to speak, by saying we would be better off without a religion that condemns non believers to Hell? In other words, the absence of the organized "religion" would not do anything to help the non believers. In theory, their fate would not change. "

Harsch: Clever Jimmy wrote on Feb 26, 2008 11:42 AM:

" Jimmy Gillman posts an innocuous blog and now watch the angel feathers fly. And this time the unChristians have provoked it! I can't wait to see what's next. "

Bugs Raplin wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:59 AM:

" We'd all be better off without the three great religions-Islam, Christianity and Judiasm. The first two condemn non-believers to everlasting torture. At least Judaism doesn't do that, but there is a lot of downright nastiness in the Talmud. Prison religions. Yep, that's what they are. I'm sure God does not approve of them. "

Michael Welch: "No It Ain't Necessarily So"... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:31 AM:

" One phenomenon I've noted: there is a definite rise in what can be called 'militant atheism' re: Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens et. al. In my parents' time these folks identified themselves rather gingerly as 'free thinkers' and atheism was not openly spoken of, somewhat like homosexuality and abortion, especially in middle class homes. The assertion from the late 1970s to present of a literalist protestant Christianity aligning itself with the Republican party, anti-abortion rights and 'creationism' as a faux 'science' has yielded that growing counter militancy. And by the way I seriously doubt MOST professed Christians believe 'everything' in the Bible literally... "

Michael Welch: Yes I Can "Identify"!... wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:23 AM:

" I've always been interested in religions; in my six decades I've attended (from childhood) Presbyterian, Lutheran and Methodist churches; I've been a Catholic convert and I've read about Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism. I've certainly been 'unaffiliated' -- a term which resonates in a way with 'independent' as a voter. My experiences have basically made me skeptical of religious determinism (NO! you say; WE wouldn't have guessed!); I think humans produce religions (and gods), not the opposite. As was the Jewish Austrian Sigmund Freud I am then 'technically' an atheist and like Herr Professor, as I said, I believe religion comes from the human psyche... "

Interesting figures wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:01 AM:

" I am not sure of the study, but there was one study that dug a little deeper. The findings were that the majority of educated(college degree or higher) people in the United States consider themselves Bible-believing Christians. "

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