River Valley Blogs

Re Krusty wrote on Jan 13, 2009 1:08 PM:

" Saddam would have done no such thing-he would have just scratched at his beard all day like some kind of street urchin. "

Michael Welch Cringing Past The Past... wrote on Jan 13, 2009 10:40 AM:

" The United States does have an 'open' society as far as publishing 'dissenting' views is concerned; if it did not it would obviously no longer be able to claim it is a 'free' society eh. So there ARE 'limits' to what a government can do without losing its viability and trust -- the Bush admin has certainly transgressed to the point that more and more folks find its complicity in 9-11 credible, just as the myriad lies and obfustications re: Vietnam by the Johnson and Nixon administrations expanded public doubt about the Warren report too. Bush is NOT 'Hitler' or 'Stalin' per se; he has not 'total power' over American minds but most Americans cringe as 'Bowers' noted from the actual truth about their country's history... "

Krusty wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:04 PM:

" This is also the real reason Saddam Hussein was killed so quickly. Nobody in the Bush administration wanted that man to have his day in court either. He would have been able to tell the world exactly where, how and when he got his weapons of mass destruction. (and the real reason why he got rid of them). "

Bowers to DRG wrote on Jan 12, 2009 3:35 PM:

" I imagine the transcripts result from edited videotapes of the detainees, which the torture squad is safeguarding in case some sort of faux legal proceeding occurs. This would be the evidence against them. The one thing Bush and Cheney fear is that these guys will actually have their day in court where a jury would be able to decide their guilt or innocence. A real trial where defense counsel would be able to present all the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. "

DRG wrote on Jan 12, 2009 2:44 PM:

" Re Most Amusing DRG: so, why torture for the confessions at all? Why not just fabricate the transcripts? I mean, you already stated they will merely "take out" what they dont like. So, it stands to reason they can "put in" what they want to hear, right? "

To DRG wrote on Jan 12, 2009 12:45 PM:

" What does that stand for? Dumb Ronnie Gosset? What in the world are you talking about when you say you have been water boarded at work. Do you really have a point to your banter? "

Michael Welch Bushie Bolloxes Obama Or Waterboard Me Again Daddy... wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:49 AM:

" The Bush administration has employed torture and moreover sent prisoners to other countries IN ORDER to be tortured more uh 'vigorously.' The reason so few attempts to 'try' these prisoners at Gitmo and elsewhere occur IS PRECISELY that these torture techniques would become public record; the prisoners CANNOT be tried because the 'evidence' WOULD INDEED be foind 'tainted.' Consequently the present conundrum of what to do. The much vaunted 'Osama's driver' was after all sentenced by a MILITARY COURT to 'time served' and a bit extra because the of the trumped up nature of the charges. The Bush admin has bolloxed the government into a corner -- and now it's Obama's conundrum... "

Most Amusing DRG wrote on Jan 12, 2009 10:49 AM:

" DRG, you are a hoot. Thanks for the laughs vis a vis waterboarding at work. But seriously, you don't understand the torture situation at all. The confessions are not "playing for all to hear." The confessions are on transcripts edited by the torture squads. They are not live events like Sunday afternoon football. Gee, I hope I don't have to belabor this point anymore. It's pretty simple. By the by, does your boss know about your waterboarding at work? "

DRG wrote on Jan 12, 2009 9:54 AM:

" Bowers, that is ridiculous. Picture this-the confession is playing for all to hear...all of a sudden in the middle about 15 seconds is bleeped out. Even if they just cut the tape, the jump cut would be obvious. Fact is, if they alleged torture in the body of their confession, it would either be heard, or it would be obvious something is amiss.
Yes, a bunch of us have been waterboarded on breaks and lunches at work. While irritating, it is hardly torture. "

Bowers wrote on Jan 12, 2009 7:42 AM:

" DRG, you don't understand the situation at all. The only thing Bush's torture squads permit to be heard are the confessions. If there was a comment that the confession was brought about through torture, that comment would be censored. These people are totally isolated, and at the mercy of torturers. "

To DRG wrote on Jan 9, 2009 10:32 PM:

" You waterboard at work... What planet are you living on? Er, I mean working on? "

DRG wrote on Jan 9, 2009 3:34 PM:

" Bowers, that is not what I'm saying. I am not saying they should recant their confessions. I am saying that when they confess, they should state that they were tortured in order to extract the confessions. Continuing the torture at that point would make no sense. "

Bowers wrote on Jan 9, 2009 1:33 PM:

" Use your common sense, DRG. If they recant their confessions, the torture continues. These poor souls are at Gitmo. They are totally at the mercy of Bush's torture squads. "

DRG wrote on Jan 9, 2009 10:30 AM:

" Bowers, a bunch of us at work waterboard one another regularly for certain infractions and no one is the worst for wear(and, yes, we know how to do it), so "re Bowers" was probably being truthful. I guess torture is relative.
Regarding your other point, common sense tells me that if the Muslim confessions of guilt were brought about by torture that they would have stated they were only confessing because they were tortured. Do you have any such statements? "

Michael Welch IF You Read It Then Discuss THE BOOK... wrote on Jan 9, 2009 10:26 AM:

" This is rank silliness -- you read a Griffin book but ALL you can say is that because it IS on some shelf at Barnes & Noble that that somehow 'proves' its theses wrong? I'd say that was a pretty superficial 'reading' and that you ought to be able to offer some more substantial criticism than that. We've been on THIS unmerry-go-round more than once too. Why don't you tell me why Griffin's critique of NORAD is incorrect or of the collapse of the THREE buildings, one of which was NEVER struck but nonetheless toppled? Then we'd have a real 'discussion' but otherwise this is clearly a waste of time and effort... "

To four fifteen pm poster wrote on Jan 9, 2009 8:32 AM:

" You were waterboarded at work the other day... right... "

Bowers to Re Bowers wrote on Jan 9, 2009 7:34 AM:

" So you were waterboarded at work? And you didn't find it a big deal. Perhaps they didn't do it right. Christopher Hitchens, a supporter of Bush, subjected himself to waterboarding and admitted that it was torture. Also, let me recommend the documentary, Taxi to the Darkside, which documents the use of torture by the Bush administration from the top down. There's a scene where a commentator questions what other methods of torture might have been used-such a burial alive. My point being that the evidence shows 9/11 was an inside job and therefore any Muslim confessions of guilt were brought about by torture. "

Re Bowers wrote on Jan 8, 2009 4:15 PM:

" Of course people have the right to get their books published. But, no one has the "right" to force a huge bookstore chain to carry their book. Barnes & Noble chooses to carry his book with no objection from the Government. If the Government was the least bit concerned and your theory was true, B&N would not carry the book.
Regarding waterboarding...much ado about nothing. I was waterboarded at work by some coworkers the other day and, while uncomfortable, it didnt make me confess to padding my expense account. And, waterboarding certainly wouldnt make me to confess to a capital crime that I didn't do. "

DRG wrote on Jan 8, 2009 12:44 PM:

" Michael Welch, see my post below. I did read his book and I found it to be good. I then stated what I thought the weakness was, which has yet to be addressed here.(except for Bowers, who attempted to address part of my point, which I then responded to). Why not join in the discussion instead of accusing people of not reading the book? "

Bowers wrote on Jan 8, 2009 12:02 PM:

" Let us look at the case of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You've all seen his picture in the newspaper. He's right out of central casting for someone who looks like the quintessential terrorist. Turns out he was waterboarded. CIA Director Hayden has admitted that. So, if you're wondering about Muslim confessions regarding 9/11, that's how they came about; they were tortured into it. "

Bowers wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:54 AM:

" Griffin, in his latest book, The New Pearl Harbor Revisited, points out that the official story of 9/11 would have been revealed to be a big lie within weeks, if not days, of that tragic event IF Congress and the Press had carried out even minimal investigations. But that's not the way it works in this country. Oh, people like Griffin have the freedom to get their books published, but the entire system is geared to make sure their audience is as small as possible. Again, thank God for the internet as a means to get the truth to the people. "

Michael Welch The New Generations JFK Conspiracy... wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:54 AM:

" Yes it's obvious that the LACK of major media interest in Griffin is all that it really takes to encourage those who don't want to believe in an 'alternate' 9-11 conspiracy to just dismiss rather than actually investigate, i. e., TRY READING Griffin before rejecting him eh. Of course the JFK conspiracy suspicions hung on and grew for decades BECAUSE folks simply found the Warren report incomplete and even 'silly' in what it expected you to accept. Re: 'Bowers' I think 9-11 will continue as the 21st century 'Kennedy assassination,' i. e., more and more folks will seek 'the truth' and will slowly but ultimately reject the 9-11 commission omissions and distortions too... "

DRG wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:10 AM:

" But, the point is his books ARE at Barnes & Noble. If the Government didnt want the book there, it wouldnt be. And that wouldnt arouse suspicion-no one is entitled to have anything they write carried by Barnes& Noble at all. This is further evidence the Government simply doesnt care whether people read and believe his stuff or not. "

Bowers wrote on Jan 8, 2009 7:22 AM:

" Why bump off David Ray Griffin? That would only work against Bush by arousing suspicion. The mainstream media just ignores him. His books are never placed in prominent positions at the front in places like Barnes and Noble. They're buried in the back. You have to search for them. Thank goodness, though, for the internet. It's a way to get the truth to the people despite the lack of integrity of the mainstream media. "

DRG wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:12 PM:

" Griffin is good, but he hasnt been able to explain certain things. Like, why doesnt the Government "silence" people like him, Jesse Ventura, etc? A Government powerful enough to pull something like that off would surely be powerful enough to silence a few rabble-rousers. The only reason these people are still walking around freely is that the Government simply doesnt care and has no interest in silencing them. "

Michael Welch I Second Mr Bowers Recommendation... wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:42 AM:

" We've discussed 9-11 ALMOST as often as the literalness of the gospels so if someone is wondering where 'Bowers' came up with his characterization then he must be very new to Jimmy's blog or he just wasn't paying attention. I WAS a skeptic re: the ALTERNATIVE 9-11 conspiracy and after all 9-11 by definition was a 'conspiracy' -- it just depends on which one you believe. Most accept the official government version because of course your government would NEVER lie to you or obfuscate the facts would it? ALL real 'conservatives' believe government is fundamentally good and truthful and NEVER ought to be suspect -- right? Right? I finally became convinced because Griffin's books are thoughtful, scholarly and careful (Griffin is a 'process' theologian) and they ARE eye opening and WELL worth your time... "

Lee Bowers with more observations wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:46 AM:

" The fairy tale of Osama and the 19 hijackers. Gee, you know if Osama was guilty, you'd think the FBI would list 9/11 on his wanted poster, but they don't. The FBI has admitted they have no hard evidence of his complicity. I think Osama's been dead for 6 or 7 years, but were he ever brought to trial, there's not a jury in the world that would convict him for anything related to 9/11, because there's no evidence pointing to his guilt. "

Bowers Observing wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:41 AM:

" Well, I see a true believer resides in West Salem. Try reading a little David Ray Griffin, but of course that could be a little unsettling for you. Continue on in your dream world. Paraphrasing Jack Nicholson, some people just can't handle the truth. "

To DutchBoy wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:08 PM:

" Come out of your Rush Limbaugh world for a moment, would you? Obama isn't President. He can't have an "administration" yet. "

West Salem Observer wrote on Jan 6, 2009 6:35 PM:

" To Bowers;
The fairy-tale of Osama and the 19 highjackers??
What kinda drugs are you on. I'v read your blogs for a year and this is this is the farthest you gone into your little lah-lah land yet, Get a grip on reality. Apparently you watch alot of MSNBC. "

Lee Bowers wrote on Jan 6, 2009 12:21 PM:

" First, we end our occupation of Iraq and end the war in Afghanistan. The occupation is illegal, and the war in Afghanistan is being fought for a lie-namely the fairy tale of Osama and the 19 hijackers. Take the money saved and bail out all state governments. This will protect good paying jobs. Then retract all free trade legislation. Enact tariffs to protect what remains of US manufacturing. We have a "jobs crisis"-one that must be dealt with soon and in a dramatic fashion. "

To Froto from Jimmy wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:57 AM:

" I didn't say I was in favor of tax increases or having my taxes raised. In fact, my post calls for a tax freeze. And I simply stated that I (and others) think it would be a good idea to forgo any additional, minor tax rebates at this time, so there's really nothing for me to prove. Further, the multiplier for government spending is three-and-a-half times greater than those that come from tax cuts, which Americans have been brainwashed into thinking is the answer to most everything. "

Froto wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:44 AM:

" Jimmy you are all mouth and no action. If you realy truly mean what you say, then back up your mouth and prove that you will send it 50 to 70% of your gross earnings to help this needed tax problem, otherwise stop patting yourself on the back. Do not wait for the rest of us because as you have demonstrated your generosity is big as long as you can get the rest of herd to follow, otherwise you just hot air on this subject. "

Froto wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:36 AM:

" Jimmy no government has ever successfully created long term jobs or therefore real short term jobs for the masses, only a few privileges benefit for a short time the rest suffer. We got out of the depression, unfortunately by the World War not the CCC.
the key is cutting spending along with tax cuts.
Regan tried the tax cuts and the Dems quadrupled spending and wiped out the cuts in that manner. Small business is and has been the backbone of our economy. As the saying goes try asking a poor man for a job. "

DutchBoy wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:58 AM:

" The scandal-plagued Obama administration and their "new ideas" are already slowing to a glacier-like tread. An across-the-board tax cut and subsequent influx of new monies into the federal coffers could easily pay down the debt (following an across-the-board spending cut.) If Obama were brave enough to do something truly Reaganesque, he would assure another 25 year era of prosperity that "Dutch" started back in '82! With Dem infighting already consuming the Senate, Obama would be best served to join ranks with the GOP and blue dog Dems and do something dramatic! "

Michael Welch Just Let Him GO... wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:26 AM:

" As for W, I wouldn't see a hair of his chinny chin chin harmed; I could care less if he's surrounded twenty four hours a day by the hounds of hell, snapping and frothing at the myriad lefties LONGING to get at his sacred person. Get thee gone! I say; now's the time to cash in on the presidency via million dollar speeches, honorary board positions, heavy advances for a ghost written memoir apologizing for one's presidency, going the 'foundation' route to collect buckie$ from HIS Saudi pals (the bin Ladens for some) and establishing that presidential library in some forsaken former Arbusto oil field in Midland. Sure vaya con Dios el presidente -- don't call 'US,' we'll, well we'll wait eh... "

Michael Welch The New New Deal -- Sure... wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:17 AM:

" I would favor 'targeted' tax cuts primarily weighted toward the 'middle' and especially for the poor -- the 'negative' income tax redux. Poor people obviously will spend immediately but sure in order to have any package that'll pass the middle must also benefit. I'd begin INCREASING taxes for the wealthiest at some point; and I favor the trillion dollar 'stimulus' but I'd like to revive say something akin to the old Federal Theater Project that would pump more dough into the arts as well as into public broadcasting. And the Big O needs to realize that by nationalizing health care he'd remove a HUGE burden from businesses big and small... "

I agree Jimmy wrote on Jan 6, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Regarding the secret service protection issue. Of course, we all await the sarcastic juvenile comments from the far left wingers who post here.....here they come.... "

Lee Bowers wrote on Jan 6, 2009 7:51 AM:

" Way to go Obama. That $500 tax cut is going to make all the difference in the world. Gee, maybe I should get married again. Then I'd get a $1,000 tax cut. Whoopee! "

zippy wrote on Jan 6, 2009 6:21 AM:

" Jimmy, if you are so tired of tax cuts then why not just give more of your own money to the government? They wont turn it away.

I'm also curious what kind of jobs government really creates? Most of the government jobs I can think of are just 'look busy' jobs. Aside from that, more beaurocrats means more senseless government intrusion into our life.

What creates jobs is releasing people from government red tape, so they can create their own jobs. Bill Gates created more jobs, directly and indirectly, than government ever did. "

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